Borrow the Mic: How Podcast Guesting Can Grow Your Editing Business with Haylee Gaffin

Tara: We have an amazing guest on the show today. Haylee Gaffin is joining me to talk about podcast pitching for freelance editors. Haylee’s company, Gaffin Creative, is a podcast production company that empowers creatives to share their voice while growing their brand. Haylee is my podcast producer, and her and her team are the ones that make sure you all get new episodes of The Modern Editor Podcast. So let’s get right into it.

Welcome to The Modern Editor Podcast, where we talk about all things editing and what it’s like to run an editorial business in today’s world. I’m your host, Tara Whitaker. Let’s get to it.

Tara: Hello. Welcome, Haylee, to The Modern Editor Podcast. 

Haylee: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Tara: Yay. And like I mentioned before, Haylee is my amazing podcast producer, and I don’t know what I would do without her and her team. I would probably not have this podcast still because it’s a lot of work. So thank you for that. Absolutely. All right, so we’re gonna talk about podcasts today and how they can help editors with their businesses.

But my first question is kind of general. Because we know how we have these sort of fads that happen, right? Like blogging had a moment and you know, Substack is having a moment. Has podcasting had its moment or is it still very much a thing? 

Haylee: Well, in my opinion, I feel like I get this a lot because we saw a huge surge of podcasts coming about in 2020.

Because no one else had anything better to do than sit at home and record podcast episodes. For me, it was a phenomenal moment for podcasting because it built my business, but at the same time, half of the podcasts I launched in that year no longer exist. 

But what I will say is, I pulled a few stats because I was like, you know what? I think numbers are important and they don’t lie. In 2025, the podcast audience globally is projected to reach 584 million listeners. So people are still listening, but there are less podcasts than there used to be. There are like 4.4 million podcasts, but only 424,000 that are still active today, meaning like they have released an episode in the last 90 days.

So, yes, 424,000 seems like a lot, but when you look at 4.4 million podcasts that have kind of gone away. That to me, or at least 4 million that have gone away, it shows the importance of consistency and like how much work actually goes into a podcast, which in turn tells you the ones that have been around for a while or the ones that are continuing to produce see the results and know that podcasting does work for their goal in business.

Tara: That’s wild. Yeah, that is very wild and it is kind of a misconception, at least that I had going into it where part of me was like, oh, this can’t be that difficult, right? It’s just like blogging, but you just talk instead of write. But then on the other hand, I was like, there’s so much work involved, which is why I ended up reaching out to you.

But you’re right, consistency is key, and knowing what you want out of the podcast at the beginning, or evolving and pivoting if need be. But yeah, there are quite a few podcasts out there I look into that are like, they’re out there, but they stopped recording a couple years ago or even more than that. 

Haylee: Yeah. And there’s value in like keeping those inactive podcasts out there because people find you, they find the resources, like you’re still technically a podcast host. If your podcast is on a break or on a hiatus, you’re still a host. You’ve created all of this phenomenal content. You’re just not an active host anymore.

Tara: That makes sense. And now that I’m thinking of it, 400 some thousand podcasts isn’t that many. Like if you think, not really globally, I mean, we’re usually thinking like in the millions, or who knows, even billions. I mean, how many blog posts are out there still? Oh gosh, billions. Yes. Okay. So podcasts are still very much a thing. Love to hear it. Since I’m hosting one. 

Haylee: I mean, same here. I’ve built a whole business that relies on podcasts to stick around. 

Tara: Yeah. Okay. We’re still okay for now? Yeah. Okay. So we know there’s a decent amount of podcasts, however, some people aren’t interested in starting their own podcast, which is totally fine.

Haylee: Not everybody has to start one by any stretch, and I don’t think everyone should. 

Tara: Ooh, can you talk a little bit more about that? 

Haylee: Yeah. So I don’t think that every person is meant to be a podcast host. I also don’t think that every person that dreams of having a podcast has the time, the capacity, the budget to actually produce one.

I actually had this like, moment a few minutes ago when you were talking about, because of the audience that we’re speaking to, producing a podcast without the production side of it is like releasing a book without an editor. Ooh. And like, I just want you to think about that. If you are considering doing a podcast, you need to have that post-production process in place.

That could be you, it could be, um, I’m not sitting here saying like, oh, you have to hire a producer. I don’t think you necessarily do. You just have to build a skillset that allows your podcast episodes to be consumable. And when you are using too many filler words or you are leaving in mistakes, like there are gonna be parts of this conversation where we mess up, we go off script, we pause, and we’re like, oh, can you take that out?

All of that is going to happen in a podcast episode, and if you don’t take that out, it’s gonna sound bad and it’s just gonna make the listener not wanna listen just like it would make a reader not wanna read. 

Tara: How did I not think of that? Well done. Way to tie it together. You’re so right. You’re so right.

And it is kind of that, uh, you know, there is of course budget constraints at the beginning and I totally did my own, which, you know, it was fine for the time being. Yeah, it was fine for me to get started, just like an author can do some beta reading or some self editing, and then there comes a point where you, your skillset is at its cap and you need help, and that’s where you can come in.

Haylee: Yeah. And most of the time our team is working with clients, not because of the lack of skillset that they have, but because of the lack of time. That’s our biggest thing is we’re taking up the time that they want back because they don’t love doing what we do. Just like I’m sure authors don’t love editing their own work.

Tara: Yep. And just to briefly tell listeners what you all do for me, you keep me on track, which for me has been a struggle lately. But you edit the podcast, like the audio file, you upload it and do all that magic backend work. And then I also have them help me with the blog post or the show notes and the transcript, which I still edit everything ’cause that’s what I do. And you know, so it’d kind of be weird if I didn’t, but it saves— Oh, and the social media graphics.

Forgot about that. It’s so much time. All of that stuff I could do technically, but I don’t like writing. I don’t have the time. And if I don’t have the time, then that’s going to prevent me from launching episodes, which there goes the consistency. So you do it all. 

Haylee: Yeah, and to go back to your question about like, why maybe not every person is right for a podcast. I think if you’re on the fence of like, okay, I’ve wanted to start a podcast, but oh my gosh, you’re talking me out of it. That’s not my goal here. Like, I don’t wanna talk someone out of it. I just wanna be up front because I don’t want you to get started, spend all this money on gear and licenses for music and all the different things that go into podcasting and then get five episodes in and realize one, I don’t like doing this, or I don’t think I have the time to do this. And instead, I would rather you go the route of today’s conversation and get on other people’s podcasts and test it for yourself. Because that’s the best way to start is by going on to other shows, seeing if you even like the format, if you can.

I kind of rattle off because I’m definitely, Tara and I were just talking. I don’t get on a lot of podcasts because I have a comfort thing of like, not being able to edit myself, but I’m the editor of this show, so it works really well for me. But I just have this weird like, mindset block of being able to have a conversation and it not feel too scripted, it not feel too like, I don’t know. I do, I get in my head, but that’s why I don’t have guests on my show. I’m a solo podcast because I’m teaching what I teach. Um, and every once in a while I will bring on a guest to talk about something that I don’t know as much about and my audience is asking for it.

So, yeah, I definitely think if you’re interested in podcasting, like, I wanna encourage you to pursue it. I would just encourage you to pursue slower rather than faster, so you’re not wasting time or money. But if you’re like, I’m all in, I know I’m gonna love it, go for it. 

Tara: That is very good advice because you’re right. You can get, if you’re anything like me and you like, oh, well I have this thing I wanna do now. I’m gonna buy all the equipment, I’m gonna buy all the courses, I’m gonna do all the things. And then you’re right. You get five episodes in, you’re like, um, maybe this isn’t the right choice, which, you know, can happen.

But that’s a great unintentional segue into my next question, which was gonna be okay, maybe you don’t want a podcast ever, or right now, how can you still leverage other people’s podcasts to help you broaden your reach, build your expertise and knowledge? How do you go about doing that? 

Haylee: Yeah, so I think the first thing that’s gonna be most valuable to you is being a guest, which will be the primary point of today’s talk.

But there are other ways too, that I will dive into in a minute. But when you are getting on someone else’s podcast, they are trusting you with their audience. And I think that’s the biggest piece is like, you are borrowing someone like, another host’s trust because they’re recommending you even if they have no idea who you are.

And this is why also from the host’s perspective, it’s important to do your research on who you’re having on your show. But you are giving this person access to your audience, and that is telling your audience, I trust them. So you as the guest, that’s what you’re looking for. You’re looking for that built-in trust and recommendation from a host to go onto their show and to talk to them about what it is that you do or what knowledge you have or whatever you’re teaching on.

So keep that in mind as you go onto these shows. And what I would recommend too, is like, know what you wanna go into the conversation with. Because if you are like, mmm, I can talk about anything, a host is not gonna get you on their show. I will like, beat that into the ground. Stop saying that. And if you have, I’m so sorry I’m calling you out because it’s all the time I get these pitches, my clients get these pitches, but you have to have a very specific topic because if you go to a podcast that has a hundred episodes, they’ve probably talked about anything and everything, so they don’t wanna talk about anything and everything. They wanna talk about what you focus on and your knowledge and what transformation you can provide for their audience. 

Tara: Let’s talk about the pitches for a second ’cause you just brought those up. The number of terrible pitches I receive now. And it is not from any editors. PS it’s all from complete spam. There’s no signature line, like I don’t know where they’re from. It’s always some assistant in quotes, pitching a tech bro who wants to talk about AI on my podcast, which I’m like, tell me you don’t listen to my podcast without telling me you don’t listen to my podcast.

And I get at least one a day, if not more. So I’ve, you know, I’m just on some list. That’s not a, that’s not a brag by any stretch. It is just complete junk. And so I like how you said, pitch with a topic that is relevant to the audience, relevant to you. And then my question was, when you pitch a podcast, which we might be jumping ahead a little bit, sorry.

Haylee: That’s okay.

Tara: We can either talk about it now or in a little bit. But do you pitch one topic or maybe like one to three topics that they can choose, like what’s the etiquette around that? 

Haylee: Yeah, I’ve typically seen more impact with just one primary pitch and you are like, breaking it down of, here’s a topic I wanna talk about, here are the three key takeaways, and this is the transformation your listeners can expect from us or from this conversation. What I would consider doing too is like, if this isn’t a good fit for your audience, here are two more topics that I also discuss or share about, or have knowledge in, or however you wanna phrase it. 

When I get pitches, I have one client that I like, manage their pitches for them. And when we get a pitch, it’s not just like, do we want this person on our show because sure, it would be really cool to have this person, but if they pitch us a topic we’ve covered five times and we only have forty episodes, we don’t want them yet. Like, we are gonna put them in a backlog of one day, we’ll come back to them.

But if they come to us with that topic and then they’re like, but I also speak to this and this, one of those might fit into our content calendar. Or if we’re like, oh, we really, really want this person on our show, we’ll push back and say, hey, we actually have recently talked about this, is there something else you talk about too?

Or we’ll do our own research. Now, on the other hand, it could be a nobody, like we’ve never heard of them. We don’t know who they are. They have a slightly, like, just a mid-size audience or a small audience. And when they pitch us, their topic could be so good and so impactful that we’re like, Hmm, you know what? This is exactly what we need.

But the key to this also is, can I find speaking examples? How do they perform on a podcast? Because depending on the level of podcasts that you are pitching, if you’re going to them and they’re like a top chart podcast, they’re looking for that. They wanna know like, am I gonna waste my time?

Is this gonna be an episode that’s not gonna air? Because they don’t know how to communicate very well and, what can I do? Like, what can I find about this person so that I know they’re a good fit? Because big-name podcasts are doing that research behind the scenes, whereas, you know, smaller ones like mine, I’m not doing that much research for my own podcast.

Like, I don’t have that kind of time. Most of us don’t, you know like, it’s going to be those bigger ones, but it’s always nice to have that speaking, like quote unquote real, we can call it, of different things that you’ve been on in the past, and if you haven’t, this is where I would say like, start small with your pitches.

Start with a smaller podcast, but don’t let it hold you back that you’ve never been on one, because I worked on a show where we were the very first podcast that this guest had been a guest on, and she had less than 2000 followers on Instagram. She was so excited and her content was so good that she shared it with her, like inner circle of friends, who they all shared it, and those people’s friends shared it and it became our top downloaded podcast.

And I’m talking like in the five, six thousand downloads within the first thirty days. For this particular girl, we ran zero ads to it. It was all because she was so excited for this opportunity. And you could be that same person. Like, if you were that excited about your first podcast opportunity, like don’t let the lack of experience hold you back. Just go in like, knowing you are going to be the best guest for this show. 

Tara: I love that. As someone who has less than 2,000 followers—fewer than, editor here. I was literally writing a note down because I had meant to put my guest appearances on podcasts on my website, and I never have.

Haylee: Oh, we’re gonna talk about that for sure. 

Tara: Oh my God. I mean, I have my own podcast on there, so it would be, you know, they could go to that. But how have I not put the ones that get— So see, I’m learning something new today. 

Haylee: Yeah, we’re gonna fix that. Yeah, we’re gonna need to fix that.

Tara: Yeah. Okay. So if I am an editor listening, don’t wanna start my own podcast, but I do wanna try pitching to other podcasts, how can I go about figuring out who I should pitch to? What am I looking for? Where do I go? Am I going on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? Like what’s the quick-and-dirty process for, okay, I wanna be on a podcast, now what?

Haylee: Yeah. So the first thing I’ll say is make sure you’re pitching to active shows. I am still listed as a like, I guess producer on a few shows that are no longer active and I still get pitches for them and I’m like, did you do your research? So just make sure it’s still active, make sure they’re releasing.

The second thing I will say is make sure that they actually accept guests. Like, where are they? Is it solos only, ’cause I get pitches all the time. And yes, I’ve had guests, but I haven’t had a guest on my show since 2023, probably maybe 22. So just make sure, like, is this someone who actually takes guests on their show?

And then as far as what to look for, aligned audiences is number one, like is the audience that they serve— And they’re gonna tell you who they serve. Go to their description. It says this is a podcast for blank, blah, blah, blah. They want you to know that it’s a podcast for you or it’s not a podcast for you. So make sure that your audiences are aligned. 

The second thing I would look for is like, loyal listeners go to their Instagram. Are they sharing about their podcasts? If they are, are people commenting? There’s also a good tool called Listen Notes that you can go to and you can type in any podcast like, mine’s included in that.

Yours is included in that. And what you can do is see like, the popularity, and then there’s like a listen score and it’ll kind of tell you, do people actually listen to this podcast? It’ll tell you the percentage globally that they rank like a top 10%, a top 5%. You’re gonna see there’s a huge discrepancy, like basically 10% and under is like an active podcast.

If they’re higher than that, they probably don’t have a ton of listeners. But I will say, do not let the lack of listeners—like the number of downloads—hold you back because I have been a podcast host for four years now, and my listenership goes up and down. Like I will have, I am gonna share real numbers. I will have 20 downloads for one episode, and that one will be the one that converts people into a client.

I’ll have a hundred and it will give me nothing. I’ll have 150 and it will give me nothing, and then I’ll pop back down to the 20 and someone will say, I listened to this episode and that’s why I bought this product from you. So again, don’t let like, podcasts don’t have to have hundreds of downloads in order for you to be a guest on their show and actually make an impact in whatever your goal is with going onto their show.

But it’s the loyal listeners that matter. If that’s 20 each week, that’s 20 each week. Imagine getting up, like having a platform to sell in front of 20 people in a room. That’s a big deal. If it’s 50, even better. If it’s a hundred be a thousand, woo. 

Tara: You know, um, that’s terrifying. 

Haylee: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, not, not me. In real life I could not do that. And then the next thing I’ll say, so first was aligned audiences. Second is loyal listeners, and then the third is consistency from the host. And I say this because if a host is just throwing out an episode, you know, January 1st, February 19th, April 24th, like each of those dates has zero consistency in it.

Like, yes, it’s kind of monthly, but they skip the month of March. But what you want is someone who’s showing up consistently for their audience, because then their audience gets into the habit of listening to them. So with the Modern Editor, it’s every other week. Your listeners know, I can expect an episode every other week with mine. It’s every Tuesday. 

Tara: I’m rolling my eyes on the video because for the most part, lately I’ve done well, but there were a few months where I was like, Hmm, but that’s a whole another podcast episode about burnout.

Haylee: Yes, I will say that happens. Like, there’s a difference between like, someone just not having a consistent schedule and then someone who’s battling burnout and having to take a break. I’ve been there, every client I have has been there. It’s not something unknown and it’s okay for those moments to happen. So like, don’t beat yourself up because of that. Okay, good. But you have a consistent schedule. It’s not like you are just out here throwing out content when you’re getting excited about a piece of content, which is also fun. Like, you can throw bonus content out there too. But that is something that we do ask all of our clients when they start working with us, is how often do you wanna release? And they’re like, uh, maybe one a month. That’s fine. If you only wanna do one a month, it’s gonna be the first Wednesday of the month, or it’s gonna be the whatever day we choose.

Every single time. It’s gonna be that day. And if you don’t follow that schedule, it’s going to look like you’re an inconsistent host and then your audience is gonna fall off ’cause they’re like, oh, I can’t expect new content from them every whatever. So I’m just not gonna listen anymore unless I see it on Instagram and then I’m gonna go and listen because that one looked interesting to me.

Tara: Yep. I love that you’re talking about the audience size too, because real talk, with the numbers of The Modern Editor Podcast like, the editing world is fairly small. Sometimes it can feel large, but you know, my podcast doesn’t cater to, you know, the same audience as like, I don’t even know, Dateline or Armchair Expert or, you know, some of these like huge podcasts that have, that you know, are, um, interesting to lots of people.

Editing is very specific. So I knew going in that I wasn’t going to have millions of downloads and that was gonna be okay. It’s like you said, having the consistent, loyal listeners, getting the feedback from them, having them share it on social media, having me share it on social media to expand the reach, and knowing that the goal was not millions of downloads, it was hitting the people, targeting the people that needed to hear what I have to say. And knowing that that audience was going to be small in comparison to, you know, all these huge, huge podcasts everyone has heard of out there. 

Haylee: And I would even go as far to say like, there are gonna be other podcasts in your niche that are going to maybe be more popular podcasts than yours. And that’s okay because like for me, there’s a podcast that I would consider competition, like, we’ll call it competition. That’s what it is that I listen to. It’s phenomenal. Like, there’s a reason it’s better than my podcast. And it does better than my show. But the difference between us is we have very different teaching styles.

I do enjoy the way this host teaches. It’s not the same way I do. And we also have very different audiences from that host. They’re talking to podcasters in general who are just looking to grow their show as a way to monetize, which is fine. I would, I, I mean, I teach on that too, but that’s not my focus. My focus is on helping business owners use their podcast for their brand to make money through their brand.

And while we do like, speak on monetization as an additional revenue strategy, it’s not the goal. So for you, who you are speaking to is going to be different than who your competition is speaking to. You have similar topics and it’s just a matter of finding the right audience and getting in front of them so that they go and listen to your show.

Now, I know I’m saying all of this and we’re not even talking about like, being a host, but that’s important to note for when you’re looking for specific podcasts. Who is that audience and do they even fit with my audience and what I wanna do? And there’s gonna be times where you’re like, oh, I have this opportunity to speak on this show.

The audience isn’t ideal for me to like, sell myself to. But you can still use that opportunity to set yourself up as an expert so that you have another podcast to add to that speaking page or that about page and highlight, here are all the places I’ve ever spoken about this topic. So you can go listen, and maybe that’s where you start with your practice if they kind of align, but not really align pitches and use that as practice. 

Tara: Yep. That’s a really good point, because I mean so many things, but I think what I hear from other editors who are looking to be a guest on podcasts is they’re nervous and don’t quite know, uh, how to approach it and all of that.

And it doesn’t have to be, approaching, like I said, like a huge top 1% podcast. It can be as close of a fit as you can find. Because you never know who’s gonna listen or who’s gonna share it or who is going to listen to it. And then like, six months down the road be like, oh, I remember listening to Haylee on that podcast.

That was whatever. Maybe not necessarily about podcasting or something. And yeah, it could always lead to something you never know. Yeah. So being in alignment with the audience, but it doesn’t have to be perfect. 

Haylee: Exactly. 

Tara: It’s okay if it’s a little off. 

Haylee: Yeah. I’ve actually never spoken on a podcast that was about podcasting.

Tara: Oh, hey. 

Tara: Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah. 

Haylee: Which is actually something I do wanna highlight. I talked about like, what to look for. One thing I did wanna point out is like, what to avoid. And that could be that you’re avoiding pitching competition. And I say that as a, the reason being that you don’t necessarily wanna waste your time, like if you are pitching yourself to someone you don’t know specifically. I have a lot of podcast producers that I would bring on my show, like we’re good enough friends. We are, or colleagues I guess you could call it, but friends, we’ll call ’em friends, where I know that their audience is different than mine, but they could bring a lot to my audience.

Like one works specifically with business owners in a corporate space, and I work with business owners in the small business space, so different audiences, but we can still share similar values on our show without crossing any type of competition overlay. But for example, in this editing space, if you were like, okay, I want to pitch the Modern Editor to come on and I wanna sell my nonfiction or my fiction, or you know, whatever services you’re selling, and it aligns with Tara’s, it may not be the best fit for Tara, and she might say no. Now I’m not gonna sit here and like, speak for Tara. But you just wanna think about that. Like, are you wasting your time pitching people that are going to say no because they see you as a threat to their audience? And threat is a really strong word, but you just have to look at it that way.

It doesn’t mean they’re going to say no. It just might be that you could be wasting your time and value there. Or if you do get the yes, maybe selling your services is the wrong move, and instead you are just using this as another opportunity to set you up as the expert in this space because you are on the same platform as another expert.

So there are so many different goals that you could go into a podcast, which I think we’re gonna talk about more in our training. Mm-hmm. But there are so many goals that you could go into a podcast to have, and that’s all gonna be based on who the audience is, what you’re talking about, and what your current business goals are.

Tara: Ugh, such a good point. You just made me think ahead of something where I’m going to be featuring Freelance Editors Club members on the podcast. Mm-hmm. But what you’re saying about like, aligning your audiences, so let’s say, uh, an editor was like, well, I wanna get on the Modern Editor Podcast so I can, uh, you know, talk about my services.

My audience is mostly editors. Mm-hmm. So you could do that and it could help with referrals. But again, we don’t do referrals really unless we actually know who the people are and have worked with them. Right? So I don’t wanna say it’s a waste. It would be good practice, but you’re not going to be hitting your ideal audience.

You’re not gonna be talking to authors. I mean, some editors are authors and I, who knows, maybe there are some authors that are listening. But it’s called the Modern Editor Podcast. It is, yeah. Specifically for editors. So that is a good example of how it’s not really competition. I wouldn’t view them as that or, or like you said, like the heavy word threat, but it just might not be in total alignment with what you’re looking to do.

If you’re looking to get more clients, it might help you get more comfortable with podcasting or, you know, being a guest or speaking, you know, in public quote, but it’s probably not going to directly get you more clients, if that makes sense. 

Haylee: Absolutely. And I think that’s, again, that’s where those goals of going into a podcast, knowing what your goal is, is going to determine how you end the conversation, what you speak to.

Like I’m not coming here to try to convince all of— Obviously, I kind of talked to a lot of you out of it in the beginning, but I’m not trying to convince you to come and work with me. That’s not the goal of this conversation for me. Like, can I be transparent here of like, my own reasonings? Always like, so for me, Tara and I were talking about podcast pitching, which is a big piece of what we’re talking about in the training, but we wanted to also align the podcast with that training.

So this is gonna funnel you into that. But for me, what this does is it sets me up as, okay, I’m a producer that loves on my clients. I show up when I’m invited. I feel like I’m trying so hard not to like, sound weird. I don’t know. Weird it up. We’re okay with that. It gives potential clients the opportunity to see, like we have a one-on-one relationship and that’s what I want my clients or potential clients to know.

And it might not be like, oh, Haylee is going on the show to get clients from Tara, it’s Haylee is using this on her website, which we’ll get into, into the repurposing aspect of it. She’s using this on her website, so when someone goes to the show or to the page of all of Haylee’s clients, she sees the Modern Editor.

But then when they’re on the About section, they also see that, oh, Haylee was on the Modern Editor. Let me go listen to this conversation and how that went. Like, what is the relationship like between Haylee and her clients? So that would be my goal for coming onto this podcast, not to sell you. Obviously, I also want you to be educated on being a guest on podcasts, but right now I don’t have any trainings. I don’t have any offers to sell you on being a guest, but I do have a different goal in mind, and it could be as simple as that. It could be I want people to see who I am when I work with people, or it could be I want people to see that I’m an expert.

I want this to also lead me to stages, if you wanna speak on stages. So, yeah, it does not have to be, I need to sell in order to go onto a podcast. 

Tara: I love the transparency. I love it. And you did bring up the training, which I will talk about in a little bit. But before I do that, I wanted to make sure when we were talking about how to pitch, how to pitch yourself, you said, Listen Notes was a good place to look. Could we just like, get on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and start typing in some keywords like where else could we look?

Haylee: Yes to those. So when you’re on Apple, what I would do, there are categories you can go through and see recommendations, but if there’s, like, if you go into it knowing, okay, there are these five podcasts I know I wanna be on, they’re a little outta my reach right now.

What can I do? Go look at each of those on Apple and at the bottom of each of those podcasts, there are similar podcasts. So you just scroll to the bottom and those are other ones that might be in the like, outta my reach, but they have similar audiences that are relevant for you as a podcast guest. So that would be what I would do on Apple.

Now, you can also use keywords to find different podcasts of like, whatever topic you’re trying to pitch, if it would be relevant to that audience, then what I want you to do is after you’ve like, developed a list of all of these people and all of these podcasts, I want you to go over to rephonics.com/graph, G-R-A-P-H, graph, and you can enter any podcast name in there and it will build a web of similar podcasts.

So it’s like, I know the visual’s not there, but there’s a podcast in the middle, and then there’s all these webs going out to other podcasts, and then from those, there’s more webs going out to other podcasts. So it’s showing you basically the listener relationship between all of these shows through a web.

And you can start from the outside and work your way in if you wanted to, but it just opens the door to so many more podcasts that you’ve probably never heard of, but listeners from this show listen to this one and to this one. I love this tool. I use it all the time. I don’t even remember where I found it from.

Probably at a podcast conference or something, but it’s not a well-known tool and I just encourage you like, bookmark it. If getting on a podcast is something you wanna do, go bookmark that because it is one of my favorites. 

Tara: I remember doing this. I saw, it was in a newsletter or a teah, something, and it’s super cool.

It looks like a big web and then they offshoot all over the place. And you said something else too, where when you get on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to, of course you’re gonna see the big name podcasts. Mm-hmm. But like you said, there are 400 and some thousand podcasts. You have to do a little digging to find podcasts sometimes, and it doesn’t mean they’re not good or you know, just because they’re not getting millions of downloads.

There are still some amazing podcasts out there that have fewer views than millions. But you might have to do a little bit of digging and kind of going down that rabbit hole of the internet and the graph and the web and all of that. So it might take a little time.

Haylee: Yeah. When you’re using this graph, it will show you like, big-name podcasts will have bigger webs.

They just will, the smaller podcasts will have smaller webs. I know at one point I had like, four podcasts attached to me. I think it’s grown a little bit since then, but when I first started sharing it, I was like, Ooh, am I embarrassed that I only have this many? But it also aligns with I have a very niche audience.

They’re business owners and none of the podcasts at that time were also podcasts, which meant I was the only one my listeners were listening to during that time. Ah, yep. 

Tara: And that’s okay. Yeah, I mean, I’m fine with it. Yeah. Now I haven’t looked in a while. Now I need to go look at mine, which might be humbling, but we’ll see.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so we do our research. We find the podcasts through the web or through keyword searches. We get our list. We figure out our topics, make sure they align the podcast with our audience. Boom, we get a podcast guest spot. We work our magic. We do the podcast interview. Uh, now what?

Haylee: Now it’s time to make the most of that appearance. Yes. How do you do that? Yeah. What I would do first and foremost is make sure that you’re keeping a relationship going with that host because the key to getting on other shows, they are friends with other podcast hosts. They have their own network of people that they can say, Hey, not only was this person a great guest on our show, but they also went above and beyond.

They thanked me after the interview, they shared the podcast. They marketed it beyond what I asked for. Those are things that podcast lists are looking for, because I’ve been in this space since 2017 and the number one complaint that I get from clients is that guests do not share their episodes. 

Tara: They don’t?

Haylee: Sometimes. 

Tara: That’s wild. Yeah. Why? Why? 

Haylee: A lot of times, especially when you get into the bigger names, they’ve done it so many times that they’re like, Hmm, I’ve already shared a conversation like this. I don’t really need to share it again. And there’s two sides to podcasting. There’s the host wanting to grow their show through a guest. And then there’s the guest wanting to grow their brand through the host. And when they land on your show, what they want out of it is done. They’ve got it. So go above and beyond, share it, even if it’s just like, accepting the collaboration tag or resharing to your stories. Just do that.

But the other thing is like, if you wanna take it a step further, when your audience starts seeing you on shows, they’re gonna start reaching out to you to come onto their podcast. So start sharing it. Share it to your newsletter, share it on Instagram. Do the basic marketing that you would normally do.

But if you really wanna make the most of your appearance, there are other ways that you can repurpose. So, for example, you could ask for the footage if it’s a video recording. There are so many little like, nuggets I’ve dropped in today’s thing that I could easily go back and pull and use for my own purposes.

Not necessarily for, oh, go listen to this podcast, but you could ask for that footage. Now, you can always like, make the host happy and say, this came from a conversation with Tara on the Modern Editor. Go listen at the link in my bio, or go check out her podcast over on her profile. I would recommend doing that, especially if you’re getting the footage, but ask for that footage, repurpose it.

You can use it to create your own blog post. So on every single podcast episode I’ve ever been on, I have taken that a few months later and I have turned it into a blog post. Podcasters are typically doing this already, but if you put a spin on it from your perspective of, here’s all the highlights I would’ve pulled out into the blog post to make it different than theirs, you have a piece of content on your website that you can share.

Now, in addition to that, I know that takes a little bit of time, but at the same time, like you know, the content, it came from your brain. So I would just go through, listen to the conversation, and make sure that you’re actually putting in the most important aspects. Like not everything I’ve said today would make it into the blog post I write, not everything I said today is gonna make it into the blog post we write for Tara.

So just think of it that way. The other thing is like, when you’re re-listening to the podcast and you’re writing that blog post, there are gonna be quotes that you say that you want to use those nuggets of information, create graphics for it. These could be graphics that you are using just for social media to market your own business.

It doesn’t have to be that you’re using these to promote the podcast itself. It’s just, oh, Haylee said, what was it I said earlier about, releasing a podcast without a producer is like releasing a book without an editor. Like that could be a pull quote we use to market this episode that Tara could use.

But I could also use it too, because that makes sense for a lot of my audience that maybe doesn’t believe they need a producer or that they need to do the production side of things. 

Tara: Yes. It’s all about relationships. Yes. We talk about this a lot, so I’m really glad you said that. It’s not transactional, it’s not, you know, I’m gonna just use you, use you in your podcast, and then mm-hmm, piece out, like that’s not, that’s not how we roll around here. Yeah. In the Modern Editor Podcast or Gaffin Creative, we do relationships. We do, we just, we don’t do the transactions and the ghost and run or run and ghost or whatever. 

Haylee: Yeah. Okay. And the other thing with like, repurposing is we talked about adding it to your website.

If you’re not adding it, like it could just be you put the logo and you link directly to the blog post or to the Apple Podcast link. That’s all it needs to be. It doesn’t need to be the full blog post. That could be like, a later down the line when you have extra time in your business, you’re in a slow season and you want to create more content for yourself, then you can do it.

But just having that icon, like ask them for the logo and they’ll send it to you. There’s, they’re excited for that back link. They’re giving you one by having you on the show and linking to you. So do the same for them and it’ll just improve your SEO, like, all those back links. And then the other thing I would say is use it in those future pitches, like I mentioned, when you’re pitching, link it, have examples or have a speaking page. You could even have links to it as well. 

Tara: Ooh, I like that idea. That’s fancy. Okay. Is there anything else that you would recommend to an editor who’s listening if they could do one thing to get going on this? I wanna be on podcasts. What’s one little nugget, a little thing, that action item that they could do right now to help them get started?

Haylee: Hmm. Before you start pitching, I would figure out what it is that you wanna talk about and what that signature talk is. And I’m gonna leave it at that because we’re going deeper into that in the training. 

Tara: I love it. Sorry, I totally threw that at you too. So nicely done on the fly there.

Haylee: I’m selling your trainings and I love it. Your membership.

Tara: I love it. It’s the relationships, right. All right, well I think that’s a good place to wrap it up, even though I think we could probably keep talking for another hour, but we’re gonna talk about that here in a little bit. So thank you so much, Haylee, for coming on The Modern Editor Podcast. I’m so excited you were here and on such short notice. 

Haylee: Thank you so much for having me. If your listeners are looking to learn more about podcasting, we do talk a lot about conversations like this over on Clocking in, which is our podcast for podcasters and podcast guests.

Tara: I love it. Well, thank you again and we’ll talk soon.

As we alluded to during the episode today, Haylee is going to be speaking inside the Freelance Editors Club in May 2025. She is going to expand on what we talked about today with pitching yourself to podcasts, but she’s going to give you the how on what exact steps to take to create that powerful pitch.

So if you are a current Cultivate member of the FEC at the time of her workshop, you’re going to have access to the live training. But if you’re listening to this episode and it’s past May 2025, you can join FEC and get instant access to Haylee’s recording and literally hundreds of other trainings and workshops. So go to TaraWhitaker.com/club and join at any time.

Thank you so much for tuning in to today’s episode. If you enjoy The Modern Editor Podcast, I would be so grateful if you left us a review over on iTunes. And as always, you can head to TaraWhitaker.com to connect with me and stay in touch. We’ll chat again soon.