Behind-the-Scenes of Becoming a First-Time Author With Sam Vander Wielen

Tara: Welcome to The Modern Editor Podcast, where we talk about all things editing and what it’s like to run an editorial business in today’s world. I’m your host, Tara Whitaker. Let’s get to it. 

Tara: Hello, Sam. Welcome to The Modern Editor Podcast today.

Sam: Hey Tara. Thanks so much for having me.

Tara: Oh my gosh. Thank you for being on here. And I just have to say real quick, I have to thank you for dealing with my awkwardness when we met in person. 

Sam: No awkwardness at all. I love that. Oh my gosh, I was so happy to meet you. 

Tara: Oh, I was too, but, and for the listeners, we met in person, I don’t even know, was it a month ago? 

Sam: Beginning of April. Oh my gosh.

Tara: Okay, so we were at the Chicago launch of Kit Studios, and I walked in and I saw you, but you didn’t have a name tag on and I was like, “I think that’s Sam. I dunno. I don’t wanna, what if it’s not?” So I like, creeped around and I kept looking back. I’m like, “I know that’s Sam. I know that’s Sam.” I’ve followed you on Instagram for years. I know that’s you. So I finally got the courage to come up to you, and then you were like, “Can I have a hug?” And I was like, “You’re my people.”

Sam: No, that was awesome. It was such a fun surprise for me because I actually flew out there to interview with Nathan Barry to be on his podcast, the founder of Kit. And when I got there, they were like, by the way, we’re having a party afterwards if you wanna go. I was like, sure. I mean, I’m here. I flew in from New York, so I had no idea. So it was just like such a fun surprise, and then to get to meet you and Amber was like the cherry on top. 

Tara: It was so fun. It was such a good event. We’re actually gonna go there, I think it’s next week, and we’re just gonna work and do some marketing stuff, and then I think we might pop into one of the studios and record something because that space is beautiful.

Sam: It really is. I would do the same if I lived there, for sure. Yeah. They’re opening one here in New York, so I’m excited about that.

Tara: Yeah. Thank you for being so generous with my awkwardness. That’s outta the way. Now I wanna talk about your new book, which is called When I Start My Business, I’ll Be Happy. and I love the title so, so much.

But before we get into that, just in case, if listeners are like, who is Sam Vander Wielen? Can you give us a little brief synopsis of your journey and where you started, and how you got where you are today?

Sam: Yeah, sure. So I’m an attorney turned entrepreneur. I was a corporate lawyer who left actually to start an online health coaching business. That really was not my thing, but I wasn’t so sure what my thing was either. And I thought I had kind of done my one big pivot in life, like leaving, being a lawyer was such a big deal, and I thought that was gonna be the end of it, but it was not. And I had this little idea back in 2016 to start an online legal templates business.

A business that helped creators get their business legally protected, get it started. And I started that business in 2017, early 2017, and it took off pretty much right away. So ever since then, the eight years since, I have helped over 350,000 online entrepreneurs legally protect their businesses, get their businesses started.

I’m the host of the podcast On Your Terms, and then now the author of When I Start My Business, I’ll Be Happy. So yeah, I really just help, I focus on helping people build both legally protected but also profitable businesses. Because along the way a lot of people have come to me asking like, how are you doing this kind of business? And also like, you seem pretty chill and like you have a life. So I wanna learn from you. So I help you with a little bit of both. 

Tara: Um, wow. That’s a lot of people. That’s incredible. Thank you. In such a short amount of time too. 

Sam: Yeah. Eight years simultaneously feels like forever and not a lot of time.

Tara: Yeah, I hear that. I always have to count back as to how long I’ve been in business and it’s been twelve years for me, but again, some days I’m like, it was just yesterday and other days I’m like, have I been doing this my whole life? Yeah. Which professionally, I’ve done this way longer than I was in corporate, so I guess, yeah, I have been.

Sam: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah, I, well, I also always think about the fact that like everything you’ve done has led up to here, you know? So it’s like, I’ve technically only had this business for eight years, but I was laying the groundwork for 10 years, probably before that, you know? Right. 

Tara: Mm-hmm. But maybe unknowingly too. Did you ever think you would be an entrepreneur with a book and a podcast?

Sam: I was an entrepreneur from like age five on. I was really into—I was one of those kids that was like always wanting to start businesses, always starting little businesses. I entered an entrepreneurship competition in elementary school with a, my gosh, very novel concept, a pizza store.

And so I did that, so I was always interested in it. I actually was really obsessed with infomercials as a kid, so something I write about a lot in like my content and my weekly newsletter, Sam’s Sidebar. And so I, this was all in here, but I still didn’t think, like, I still thought it was safer to get a quote unquote normal job.

I thought that was the safest path. As I write about a lot in my book, I had a very, like, violent, traumatic upbringing, and so I really wanted this like, straight and narrow pathway of getting the heck out of my family, in my home. And so I saw being a lawyer as really the best way to do that. 

Tara: I think a lot of us in our age group were given that this is the safe route. You go to college, you get a good job, you’re set, you’re good to go. And we’re learning year by year that that is not necessarily the only path to being successful and, and feeling steady and yeah, safe. 

Sam: Absolutely. I mean, at the same time, I don’t think everyone—I don’t mean to say like, everyone’s not cut out to be an entrepreneur, as in being an entrepreneur is the more, is like the subjectively better or objectively better option.

It’s that like, there’s just not every, like, just like I am not cut out to work in an office building anymore. I think I would go crazy. But we need people to do that and we need people to innovate and start businesses. Like we need both, and that’s what makes the world turn. Yep. So, yeah, I think that’s a lot of where the inspiration from my book came from as well, because I was like, just because you’re unhappy in your job doesn’t necessarily mean that a business will fix it. And even people who really are meant to be entrepreneurs and have their own businesses still are under the false belief that their businesses are going to fix everything for them. 

Tara: Yes. Yes. Okay. I’m jumping ahead ’cause I actually wrote this down because it was such a like, mic drop moment for me. But you have a quote in the book that says, “Your business doesn’t have to provide you with all the happiness, creativity, or joy you seek.”

Sam: Mm-hmm. 

Tara: Oh my goodness. Like so many of us, I think maybe I’m just talking about myself, but I try and monetize every freaking hobby that I do or figure out a way that it can be productive or, you know, become a sense of, or a, become a source of income. Why can’t something just be a source of happiness or joy? And it doesn’t have to be from your business. It could be something completely outside of it. 

Sam: Yeah, I actually think that that makes your business worse. When you think of a business idea from the perspective of what is going to make me happy in this business, we’ve all of a sudden drifted away from what actually makes businesses very successful, which is that you have a novel or innovative or differentiated idea or service or product, whatever, and you are going to market the heck out of that thing and fill a hole that needs to be filled, right? That there are people who are in pain or they need, they have some need that needs to be filled, and you are doing that with your product or service.

When we start talking about like, how do I wanna feel? What do I wanna do? Those two things can be like, it’s, I’m very careful in the book to say like, it’s not like you have to be miserable. I’m not saying that either, but it’s not necessarily what I would lead with. Like I want people more to think of what is a great business idea versus just like, what do I love doing?

And then I think from that, you can become happy, right? Like, my business provides me the spaciousness to seek happiness. 

Tara: Ooh. I really like that perspective a lot. Okay, so now that we’re talking about the book, because I jumped all in, uh, with the title, the when-then virus that you call in the book, and I’m so glad there is a title for this now because when I read the title initially I’m like, that is my husband and I’s motto is “When this kid gets healthy again, then we can focus on this” and “When things slow down then we can work on this” and it never happens. So I’m curious, when did you come up with that, the when-then virus, and then was this the initial title of the book or did you and your publisher go back and forth, or how did that actually come about and land on that title?

Sam: Yeah, so there was a completely different title when I submitted my book proposal to my agent and my publisher, and looking back on it too, I would tell anybody who, like, I remember feeling a lot of pressure about having to have a good title and they were like, we like never used anybody’s original proposal.

That’s like hardly ever. So I wish I wouldn’t have cared so much. They really just looked at the substance of my proposal and didn’t care about the title. So that’s one thing. So essentially right off the bat they had said like, we don’t like this title. We love the book idea. So start writing it and let’s let something come to the surface.

And so I’m writing, writing, writing, and they’re like, have you thought of anything yet? No, no, no. So we kept having meetings all as a big team, and I had some ideas. They had some ideas and nothing just, nothing felt right. Like they even, they were just kinda like, ah, I don’t know. I don’t think that’s it. I was really like, wanting to get a one, maybe like a one-word title or like maybe a cutesy one-, two-, three-word title that played on each other and nothing was fitting, especially because I was very cognizant of the fact that I wanted to differentiate this book.

I mean, I’m a marketer at heart, so I wanted to differentiate this book from the other business books on the market and make sure it was very clear to people that it wasn’t a bro-y business book and also that it straddles both the strategy and the mindset because I really believe that you need both.

And all I saw on the market was one or the other. It was very hard to find something that had both. So we were literally at the end of a very exhausting, like multihour meeting all as a team at the whole publisher. Everybody, my agent was there. Everybody’s there. And I just said, I’m just throwing this out there as like a Hail Mary.

But this is something I say all the time, like I talk being aware of the when-then thing. And like I want people to know, like beware of when I start my business, I’ll be happy. And they were like, that’s it. It was just like, as quick as that. But it was just so funny because we had struggled for so long.

Tara: Isn’t that how it usually goes? Like the more thought you put into it, the more difficult and convoluted it gets and then, like you said, you throw something out there at the very end and it just sticks and lands. Yeah. 

Sam: There’s so much to it though, because then there’s, I mean, the whole design team was there. So from a design perspective, it’s tough because it’s what they call a title-heavy title. And so it was a very, very long title. So the whole cover was gonna have to be title-forward versus design-forward. And so that was an issue. And then part of the issue was that the title didn’t totally encapsulate what the book was about because I wanted people—and the publisher was very clear—they wanted people to know that there was a step-by-step practical plan to build and grow your online business within this book.

And so that’s when we started saying, okay, well if this is the main title, the subtitle has to reflect the value and the benefit that the person gets. So we started really like, breaking this down, but it was so fascinating to talk through it, even from like the design, like I as a baby author never would’ve thought about like, oh, the title impacts this cover. And like, then it just, there’s, there’s so many things at play for them. Yeah.

Tara: Book publishing is a very, there’s so many moving parts that you don’t even realize and wouldn’t realize if you’re not in it because, you know, why would you?

But speaking of that, because many people outside of the editing industry don’t know that there are different kinds of editors and coaches to help people write books. And I do the same thing you do. I read the acknowledgments first of every book ’cause I love it. That’s just what I do. And I was like, oh, you worked with a book coach?

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Tara: I would love to hear about that. How did you know you needed a book coach? Did you know a book coach existed? How did you find Richelle? Like, how did all of these things come about with the book coaching? 

Sam: It’s really funny because I feel like everything with the book happened in a way that’s very like, not me.

So essentially I got referred by a friend to a woman here in New York who’s a therapist, but who also does birth-chart readings, and I was like, oh, I really want to do this birth chart reading. Never done anything like that before. Just thought it was fun. Hadn’t even, I mean, I had like this very back-of-the-mind, back-shelf idea of like, one day I’d love to write a book, but that’s about where it was, you know?

And this was like, not on my radar at all, and my business was much smaller and all that. And so I go to this chart reading and she tells me, “You’re going to write a book, it’s gonna have a big impact, and you’re going to get the book deal pretty easily.” Actually, it’s going to like, the process itself will be easy of writing it, but you’re going to get it easily. You’re going to get it through a friend. There’s gonna be somebody you get connected with who connects you to an agent. It’s gonna be like, your dream agent and then that you’re gonna get like one of the first book deals you get.

I’m like, this sounds crazy because like at this point I’m like, I’m not even thinking of doing this. Literally days later, my friend I find out had got a book deal for a big, a very popular book, Jen Rabi, and she got this huge book deal and I was like, I didn’t even know this was all going on. And I contact Jen and I said, wait, I would love to do this like, someday. So what should I do now?

And she said, the very first thing you need to do is get in touch with Richelle Fredson, who’s a book coach in New York. She’s fantastic. She’s like, the book coach to the stars in the online business industry, and you should start working with her on a proposal. So I email Richelle who doesn’t take on everyone.

You have to have it be at like a certain point in the business career ’cause she wants to know that you’re going to, you know, get this. I start working with Richelle, we draft the book proposal. I get my dream agent, the first one. I contact Wendy Sherman and we get a big-five book deal within weeks of sending out the manuscript. I couldn’t believe it. On the proposal. 

Tara: That is wild. 

Sam: Mm-hmm. It was weird. It still feels weird. 

Tara: Wow. And that was from your birth chart? 

Sam: That’s hilarious that, I mean, that was the inspiration of like, maybe I wouldn’t have thought of it. You know, when this Amy, with the chart reading, when she’s told me like. “You’re gonna contact a friend and she’s gonna put you in touch with someone who’s gonna make this happen,” I guess that then opened me up to the idea when Jen told me, you need to get this book coach. I was like, okay, well, maybe this is what she was talking about. It turns out Richelle is a very experienced editor and she’s worked in publishing and so she’s connected to everyone and so she really, you know, likes your book proposal and she thinks you have a shot, she will be willing to reach out to people on your behalf. As you know, that’s the way everything gets done in every industry pretty much. So it was just like one thing led to another and boom.

And then you get Wendy Sherman as your agent. How the heck did I do that? I don’t know. But she, I mean, Wendy Sherman again, like if, if editors at publishing houses hear from Wendy Sherman, they know it’s good. So it’s like, all these pieces just kind of fell in place. Yeah. 

Tara: I think I need Amy’s contact information.

Sam: Oh, she’s awesome. Yeah, she’s great. She does them virtually, so I highly recommend. 

Tara: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I really like how you said that it opened up the opportunity, or even just the idea of it happening, because if you hadn’t heard that, I wonder if you would’ve approached it differently. Like just said, “Oh hey, congrats on your book deal,” but not, yeah, like what should I do to follow these steps. 

Sam: I also think I wouldn’t have, I feel like I still don’t think of myself as somebody who would be capable of writing a book. Not that I have it, but even at that time it was way worse. Like I would’ve just been like a book about what, for me, for who? Like, why would you wanna hear from me?

So I just wouldn’t have thought that, I would’ve thought it was too early. So I think that was the good part of it, is like, it just, it pushed me a little bit. I had back in 2018, like very early on in my business journey, had reached out to an agent in New York who I knew through a friend in law school, and this woman was like, how many Instagram followers do you have?

And I think I had like 800. And she’s like, honey, call me when you have like, thousands. So I was like, oh gosh. Okay. Well that’s gonna be a while. 

Tara: Yeah. Oh, that’s wild. That was the measuring stick is the Instagram followers. Yeah, it, you know, that’s, it’s changed so much.

Sam: At that time that was like the most popular. It was really by the time I got around, I mean, yes, the follower count helped, but really it was my email list. I had 47,000 people on my email list, and that was a pretty easy sell to tell them like, hey, I have this very active, engaged community, but some advertising is something that you own, um, was much better.

And so that’s where I say like, I’m afraid I would’ve waited because I just kept thinking I needed more and more and more. And I would tell anyone listening who’s like, wait, I would like to do that one day, that the best thing you can be doing right now is to build a platform, but build like a consistent platform of something.

Hopefully you own a little bit more. If you have a big YouTube following, a Substack, a big email list, like whatever of people you can get in touch with ’cause that’s also, it’s not only gonna help you sell your book deal, it’s gonna help you sell your book. That’s the only, it’s really the only people who buy an initial author’s book in, in my opinion.

Tara: Yep. Traditional publishers are definitely looking for the platform. Yes. What does your platform look like? Because they need to sell books and if you don’t have an audience built in, chances are they’re not gonna risk it. 

Sam: Yeah. And not pick it up. So, and self publishers are the same. You need an audience to sell to before you write the book, before you sell the book.

Tara: Which is the fun part, which you go through in your book, which I’m super glad that I have a thing too with building your business on rented space, like Instagram or social media profiles. It’s so risky and I love that you focus on, yes, social media can be a part of your strategy, but it shouldn’t be the only piece of your marketing strategy. It should complement the big three that you go into. 

Sam: Yes. And as I say in the book, I think of everything through the lens of all roads lead to the email list. So even for example, this morning on my Instagram Stories I posted about how I have a new podcast episode on my podcast, On Your Terms, about a four-day, like $338,000 launch I did back in February.

And I tell people in this Instagram Story like, comment this word if you want me to send you the episode. So that’s a great way to promote my podcast, right? So like that’s, that’s okay. Great step A, but step B for me is that then I set up the ManyChat automation. So when people comment this word, they automatically get a link to go listen to the episode.

The very next thing that happens is that they get a message from me that says, Hey, by the way, if you like this episode, would you also like to get my weekly emails? Sam’s Sidebar. 47,000 of your peers get my weekly legal tips on how to grow their business. Just drop your name below. And I actually have it integrated with ConvertKit—now Kit—so that they get added to my email list straight through Instagram.

So even like, with promoting my actual content, I’m always thinking about how does this help build my list? 

Tara: Yep. That’s such a good little workflow automation strategy. Mm-hmm. That’s pretty hands off for you once you set it up. 

Sam: Yeah, that’s pretty easy. You can do that for all episodes or also any other thing that you do, like people share, like links to things or whatever.

If you’re doing any automations, always follow up with a message about would you also like to get added to my list? Yeah. 

Tara: Hmm. Good little nugget there. Editors list. Yes. Write that down. Going back to the book coaching. I like to hear about the editing process with authors, which, whatever you are comfortable with sharing. How did the book coaching and the writing and editing process go for you as a first-time author who is doing this, obviously for the very first time? 

Sam: So the first thing I did was work with Richelle on my book proposal. And so that was, she was only involved up until I got the deal.

And so working with her on the book proposal was invaluable because, you know, she wasn’t so much critiquing my writing as much as maybe the positioning of it. And kind of, I don’t know, asking me questions to fill in the gap. I guess looking back on it, it was a nice little foray into my book being edited down the line.

So that was an incredible process and I highly recommend people work with Richelle if you want to put together a book proposal. She even has a course called the Book Proposal Blueprint, I think, that helps people to do that. And so then, you know, getting into more of like, once I got the deal and I started writing it and working with my editor, I was really, really fortunate to get Nana Twumasi as my editor, who’s an extremely talented editor and writer herself.

And so in working with her, I mean, she was great. So I only have had my experience, but in talking to my friends who have had other book deals, especially with the Big Five, some people will say that their editor will just tell them like, let me know in nine months when this thing is done, and that’s the end of it.

Goodness. My editor had me hand things in in thirds, so that was super helpful because every time I’d hand in a third we’d meet and we would talk, and that would then influence the next third, which would be better. So I think like, having that real-time feedback was very helpful because it would’ve been very difficult if I had gotten to the end.

I think the book would’ve looked different, and then I think I would’ve had even more work to do in the long run. 

Tara: Yep. That’s a really—I really like that approach ’cause you’re right. What if the third, the first third goes toward a different direction than you’re thinking, but you don’t know until you finish the whole thing. That’s a lot of rewriting and a lot of redoing and a lot of work for the editor too. So, yeah. 

Sam: And she, you know, Nana had told me when I handed in the first third, that was the hardest because she wrote me an email and said, “Thanks for sending this over. Please stop writing and don’t write anymore until I talk to you.”

I was like, oh my goodness. Like, oh, I’m gonna get canned. I’ve done horribly, you know. And so I meet with her and she’s like, no, your writing’s great. I love your writing. I think you’re funny. You know, and you like, tell these little stories and whatever. Great. But you need to learn how to write a chapter.

And I was like, oh, okay. Well, that’s a good point. I didn’t know how to write a chapter, wasn’t even thinking about how to write a chapter, to be honest. I was just writing and it was a really interesting experience that I hadn’t considered because I thought, in my naive mind, I’m like, I write all the time.

I write tons of content. I write emails all the time from my email list. Like I write, I write, I write, and yeah, I just thought it would be easy. I hadn’t thought about how different of a medium it is in the arc of the chapter versus like, yeah, just writing an email to my list, not the same thing. So that was a very, very good learning and like, much needed learning lesson for me.

Tara: Very good point. 

Sam: Yes. 

Tara: Did you have a favorite part of the editing process? Like, did you like the actual writing part? Did you enjoy the copyediting and proofreading stage or by that point, some people are like, oh my gosh, I wanna stop reading this, just get it done. Like, did you enjoy any of those particularly 

Sam: Yeah, I sadly I enjoyed the whole thing, so I’m like, I’m such a dork. I just like that. No, I was so fascinated by the whole process and like, getting to watch how they all worked. I mean, also like the audio, doing the audiobook was like, one of my favorite things. Oh yeah. But I thought probably if I had to pick favorites, it’s probably the bookends of the process.

Like, I liked the initial writing of it, even though I was going through a really difficult time. And so I feel—my mom had just died. My mom actually died the day I got my book deal. So by the time I started writing, it was about four weeks after my mom died. So not ideal. I wouldn’t recommend it to people.

So I started writing this and, you know, I personally was not in a good place, but like I, I did enjoy that process. I enjoyed like, more of the free writing of it and kind of just seeing where it went, and I wish I would’ve let myself be maybe a little bit messier in that respect, in that phase. I just didn’t know also what was coming.

And then I think I also loved the copyediting and typesetting. The typesetting was like, very satisfying to me. I thought it was very cool. I have it all in the closet. I keep it still. 

Tara: I love that. Yep. I’m a copyeditor. I love that portion of it. Yeah. It’s just like, it’s the fine tuning, the like putting the finishing touches on things.

Sam: Mm-hmm. It was fun. So satisfying. Yeah, it was fun. And it was fun to even like, carry around this big lug of a book, you know? Like I had to fly somewhere. I remember I took it on a plane. I was like, walking around like, does everyone see this is my book? I was so excited. 

Tara: It’s so funny because it doesn’t have to be printed obviously, to be legit, but there is something different about holding a printed manuscript that is different than holding a book. Like it just feels different. 

Sam: Absolutely. And once they tell you this is the final pass, I was like, oh, we are printing everything out ’cause I can’t see everything on there. Like, I need to make sure. And I actually caught a ton of stuff. So yeah, I thought it was really helpful.

I still found one error in the book in the beginning, which just drives me nuts, which we caught actually when I did the audiobook and they flagged it for editing and it just, I don’t know. It didn’t make it through the past, so I was so bummed. 

Tara: It’s okay. 

Sam: I know. I know. 

Tara: 95% is the best that a human can do for anything.

Sam: Yeah. It will never be perfect. True. 

Tara: There’s always gonna be something, but I know like, I’m sure as an author and as an editor, especially a book you edit when you read it after and you’re like, missed that, like, oh, so frustrating. But nothing, nothing stood out to me that would make me be like, I don’t trust Sam anymore because there’s an error in the book, like that’s not a thing.

Or if it is, it’s not too bad. That’s not an ideal client or someone you would wanna work with anyways, so definitely not. 

Sam: Yeah. No, uh, I love to hear that.

Tara: I’m glad you had a positive editing experience ’cause unfortunately sometimes that’s not the case. But I’m glad that you did. That makes my editor heart very happy. I did wanna talk to you too. Initially when reading the book, I was like, and you know, knowing you from before on Instagram, you are very authentic and very transparent. And then especially in the book, in my opinion, very vulnerable with certain things in your life. And I’m curious if you approached the book, writing the book and thought, “I’m gonna be super transparent,” or you know, I’m gonna hold some things closer.

And then while you were writing it, did that change, like did you have a plan on how much you wanted to share about certain things when you were writing? Or did it just kind of evolve while you were in the writing process?

Sam: I think like most people, I dream of writing a memoir, but most people also can’t sell a memoir. So it’s hard. It’s a hard sell. Yeah. So I think there was a part of me going in, both consciously and subconsciously, that was like, I am going to tell my story. If anybody who’s listening ends up reading my book, you know that that actually is a really important part of what I felt like I needed to move through me as a creative, because my mom, who was extremely abusive and she was an addict, part of my upbringing with her was that I had to keep her abuse and addiction a secret because she was a doctor and there was a lot put on me, a lot of pressure and, you know, very direct language about, you need to keep this a secret. You’re going to single-handedly like bankrupt us and this is all gonna be on you.

So it was literally important to me to tell my story. I would never have been able to write that if my mom hadn’t died. I mean, I know I technically could have, but I would not have felt comfortable. So there was that piece to me. Otherwise, I honestly don’t think about, I’m from Philly and I’m like, I don’t think about like, being vulnerable or authentic.

It’s just like, here’s how I’m feeling today. And so it’s all very just me and like, you’re going to get me, uh, if you read my emails, you know, my emails are super raw and vulnerable every week. And so that’s like, kind of the only way that I know how to be.

It’s also a little bit of my, I feel like it’s my flavor of like, how I do business and how I teach business too, which is that like, I can’t, I can’t BS around. Like, I can’t do anything other than be myself or I would feel so blocked that I won’t be able to talk to you. Forget like, contracts or anything like that. But I just wouldn’t be able to talk about anything. That’s just me.

And so I think that you have to, like, I think I can tell when people are kind of forcing it and when it maybe doesn’t feel as comfortable, but for me, that’s very natural. And I also would say that like, my writing style in general is very personal-story based to like, that jumps to a metaphor analogy.

And so that’s just like my little formula. I also don’t think about that. That’s just the way my brain works. Like I see little stories. I see little tidbits when I’m out and about and I am, I joked on a podcast the other day. I think I could see a peanut at the grocery store and like, turn it into a story that would like, teach you how to build your business.

That’s how my brain works. So that’s also like, I also knew that that’s what my audience was very used to. And so I didn’t want the book to feel like a super big departure from, you know, people who read my weekly newsletter, people who listen to my podcast. 

Tara: Yep. Following you on Instagram for as long as I have, which I wish I knew, I could see how long, but I know it’s been years, but seeing how you show up on there, felt like how you showed up on the page, just a different medium. And if you had done anything other than that, it would’ve been apparent because you have been so authentic with how you show up.

And personally, that’s what I’m attracted to on social media and emails and stuff. Yeah. Like, I don’t, I’m not interested in like Pinterest-worthy shit or like, you know, super aesthetic. Not to say that that’s wrong, it’s just not what I’m attracted to. I wanna see the nitty- gritty.

I wanna see the real life. I wanna see the not pretty, the yucky, the messy, you know, the not sunshine and roses deal because yeah, I’m sorry, but that’s not real life, nor is it business. Some days maybe, but not always. Yes, not always.

Sam: But speaking of editors, what was very helpful to me was having an outside person—my editor—take a look at like, especially because of the time period when I was writing this and my mom had just died and I was probably handing in like, really long things that were about my mom or something that had happened as a child and she would just be like, oh my goodness. 

Like, I am so sorry that this happened to you, but also I’m gonna cut this entire page because it’s too much. It’s just too much about you and we need to turn to the reader. And so it was helpful having somebody who was like, I think this is helpful to give a little context, but then like, we gotta switch into being more reader focused.

She also had the suggestion of moving more of my personal story to like the first and second chapter. So that future chapters could flow a little easier into the like, more teaching material. So yeah, that was like, that was interesting because that’s not how I would’ve done it. But I also was very open and receptive to the idea of, I don’t know what the heck I’m doing, and she’s the expert, so I will take it from her.

Tara: Yeah. So you sound like a dream client who listens.

Sam: Probably. I probably was, I don’t know. Maybe they would disagree, but I am. You know, I think honestly, if I could ever boil down like what has led to business success or anything like this, it really is like, I talk about this in the book about it, detaching yourself from your identity from the business or from what you do for a living, which then helps to take feedback from people like Nana and be able to say, she is the expert.

Like, what the heck do I know? I’m not letting my ego get in the way. This book needs to be the best book, and I want this book to do well, her and I have the same goal, right? She’s coming at it from like, the sales perspective. I’m coming at it from like, my business and my legacy and my name perspective.

But ultimately we have the same goal. So like, I’m not going to skip her advice just to save my ego. Yeah. 

Tara: Oh, that’s such good advice for authors of any genre, any type of publishing. Yeah, it’s, and it, you know, I’m not an author, but from an author’s perspective, depending on the editor and the type of feedback they give, which can also be an issue if your styles don’t jibe, it can sting for sure. But you’re right, it’s taking the ego out of it and remembering the end goal. And it’s not to make you feel crappy as an author or, you know, hopefully the editor is keeping that in mind and giving feedback appropriately. But yeah, at the end of the day, same goal. And yes, we all have our expertise. And it’s good to listen. 

Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also remembering that it’s more of a partnership. Like I think that was something I didn’t realize until we were further into the process and so on later chapters. I don’t wanna say I pushed back, but I realized it was more of a conversation then.

Like I thought when she would make edits, for example, or make little notes in the margins, I thought she was telling me what to do. Mm. Yeah. But instead it was more of an opinion. And so at the beginning, like the first probably three to five chapters, I was like, okay, I just took everything she said. But as I moved on, I was like, no, I actually put this here for a reason, or this is really important to me.

I wanna say it like this. So that was helpful. And then getting into more of a rhythm of like, knowing when it is time to take her expertise versus like, actually this is something that was important to me. So if I did it again, I think that would be something I’d feel more comfortable with, is a little bit more of that collaboration back and forth, taking some suggestions, leaving some, et cetera. 

Tara: Yes. I’m so glad you brought that up ’cause editors, they’re all different. Just like any other profession. What I guess is collaboration. Yeah, and it’s not, we’re not telling you what to do. We are giving suggestions based on our expertise and our knowledge and our skills. Some things you’re not gonna agree with, and you can stet those and the world is gonna continue to turn. 

Sam: Yeah, I thought it was really helpful when my editor told me that. And so if any of you are not having that conversation up front and like, I think especially for newer authors, it’s helpful to say like, what does that really mean?

Because you know, you’re a first-time author at a big-five publishing house and you have this like really incredibly talented editor, and she says that, but you’re like, okay. But I think at the end of the day, I just have to take it. It took time for me to understand, like she really meant that. And she also doesn’t take it personally.

So when I say like, I disagree with this thing, or I, I wanted this thing in here, she wasn’t hurt about it. Just like I was supposed to not be hurt when she would critique some part of my, you know, manuscript. 

Tara: Yep. Because ultimately it’s your story, your name on the book. Your thing, not the editor’s. Yeah.

And for us to push our opinions and beliefs and whatever on an author is never a good idea and a terrible foundation for a collaboration or partnership. I know. 

Sam: It’s quite a dance back and forth because you realize that there’s so many factors at play. Like they have their, you know, the publishing house has their, not agenda, but like, you know, their goals essentially of, and their vision for what they should be as an imprint, what they should, you know, what kind of work they’re putting out.

You have the whole marketing team on call, so they kind of also know what’s selling, what they’re gonna be able to angle from like a PR perspective. So it was just, there was a lot to take in and a lot to consider from all these different angles. I think it’s very interesting from, you know, my perspective where it was the first time I realized like, every week when I sit down and write my weekly newsletter, I just, that I can sit there and think it’s like the best thing since sliced bread and send it out and that’s it.

And that I was like, oh, I’m not in Kansas anymore. Like, I can’t do that. There’s a lot riding, there’s a lot of money getting invested in this. Like there’s just a lot at stake. Yeah. 

Tara: Yeah. Yeah, there is a lot more pressure, I would assume, involved with that. Yeah. Does it make you, or do you have another idea for another book?

Sam: Yeah, at some point I would love to. I think my team is like, no, not right now. Like, give us a minute, you know, they’re all like, uh, maybe 2027 we can talk about it. Um, yeah. I do think that if I was to do it again, one thing I’d be interested in playing with is writing a book that’s more widely accepted, like for a wider mass of people.

So my book, well, I had a very, I think what was a decent, a good idea, but like, for a very specific group of people who want to build an online business. Even like online business is a subset of people who are interested in business books like, there’s just so much that’s like limited within that, and so it’s to a specific market. 

I think it would be cool to write a wider book. And I think just for me in general, like after having talked about legal stuff for eight years, I’m feeling very much that itch to talk about other things, but I don’t exactly know how to go about doing it without ruining my business or diluting the messaging. Sure. Yeah. 

Tara: Can I just say yes please. Because the industry desperately needs fewer bro marketing books. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna learn from people like me and I wanna learn, and I am hazarding a guess that lots of other people feel this way about other approaches than what we’ve been hearing in the online space for the last decade or so.

Sam: Yeah, and it’s interesting to me that like, I respect the decision that they didn’t wanna make this like a memoir, personal book. However, that is the number one thing I have heard from people in response to having read my book, that they connected to the most, that meant the most to them and the part that they saw themselves in.

And yes, I get the messages of like, oh, it was also so helpful to like, hear about this funnel and like your email marketing strategies. But I do think there’s room for that. So I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know if it takes a little convincing. My book has done pretty well, so maybe they will be more open to it.

It’s possible. So that’s something I would consider. But I also know now, like having gone through the process, I wanna have a really solid—I know I don’t have to send them a proposal again, which is fantastic. But even just within the email I would send to my editor, I would want to have like a very specific idea and kind of an outline of how I would go about this. So I’m noodling. But I haven’t gotten hit by the huge spark yet. Maybe you’ll hear something in my speech at Craft + Commerce and you’ll tell me “There we go.”

Tara: There we go. I’ll be pulling you aside like you need to do this. You just said this. Oh, I cannot wait. Oh my gosh.

What you said nailed it is as to why I like books like yours that talk about business, is that they include the personal aspect of it. Yeah. Which, how many, I mean, when I was growing up, it was always, don’t take it personally. Take yourself out of business. It’s, you know, I don’t subscribe to that because especially for online businesses, solo solopreneurs, freelancers, whatever you wanna call it, our businesses don’t exist without us, and people need to connect with us on some level.

That whatever we’re comfortable with sharing, some people aren’t, you know, I don’t show pictures of my kids or I don’t talk about, you know, my kids that much, but not because they’re not important. It’s just because that was a boundary I put in place way before they were born that I didn’t want them online, but you’ve gotta have something to connect to outside of business in order for people to build that know, like, and trust factor and to be able to connect with you on some sort of level, whether it’s your dog, whether it’s your gym, like you mentioned, whether it’s you know, the Murder, She Wrote Festival.

I have met people who are specifically fans of Murder, She Wrote, which, it’s a very small niche in my age group, but it exists. And without sharing that stuff, you lose an opportunity to connect with people on a different level that then they could be like, oh, hey, Tara likes Murder, She Wrote, she’s also an editor. I’ve been thinking about writing a book. Or maybe I wanna be an editor. Like it all leads back to the business at some point. 

Sam: Absolutely. 

Tara: And I appreciate that you share a mix of that. 

Sam: Oh, thanks. I really appreciate it. It’s funny, I was just talking to a friend this morning that was saying like, everyone should have their thing. Like, now I’m gonna call it the Murder, She Wrote factor where, you know, it’s like, I think about this, like every time I see a doxy, the dog, I send the videos to my friend Jamie, because I just know she’s so obsessed with doxy. She would watch every doxy video I would send her.

See, I have other people who like, I see llamas and I’m like, oh, they’re obsessed with llamas. I don’t know why it’s always animals, but it is. So I send these things. So like I always, I think it is important for business owners or content creators to think about, like, what? What is your Murder, She Wrote, right?

What is this thing that people associate with you? Over the years, a lot of times mine was food. I do talk about my dog. Yeah. I don’t share about my husband that much ’cause I just like, he’s not into social media, so just don’t, he doesn’t care. And I’m not trying to retire him either. Which people have seen you not, you’re, no, he has his own life, thank God. And I do not want him here. 

Tara: Oh my gosh. What a novel concept. 

Sam: I know. I’m like, please go to work. Please do your thing. 

Sam: I will also be doing my thing. I love you. 

Tara: Yes. Yep. Yeah. I’m so on board with that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. It’s funny. Real quick you said that because I had a friend who was scrolling through LinkedIn and I had recently posted a picture of my laptop that has all my stickers on it. Two of which are Murder, She Wrote, and she went through it and she goes, oh, that must be Tara. And she didn’t even see my name. She saw the picture, but she knew it was me because there was Murder, She Wrote stickers. 

Sam: So the Murder, She Wrote factor, that’s what we’re gonna call it from now on.

Tara: I expect to hear that in your speech. And I was gonna say it will be, you’ll be cited. I’m just kidding. Just kidding. Oh, that’s too funny. Yeah. So find your Murder, She Wrote factor. Mm-hmm. I think people call it the it factor, or your secret sauce.

Sam: Yeah, but I think about that. I mean, maybe I’m such a business woman, but I’m like, I think about that more of like what differentiates me in my industry and like what I kind of focus on and then leaning into what I’m really good at, which is like for me, simplifying over complicated legal info.

Mm-hmm. So like that kinda stuff. And so, yeah, this though, you’re right, that there’s this separate personal thing that people then associate with you. And that’s really what like, latches on and just like you said, they’ll see like the Murder, She Wrote thing, but then be like, oh, but by the way, I like being an editor, so could you help?

Tara: Yep, exactly. 

Sam: Mm-hmm. Exactly. 

Tara: Oh my gosh. Okay, so I could talk your ear off for another hour, but we’ll save it for Craft + Commerce. 

Sam: Yeah, I can’t wait.

Tara: But to wrap up here, I would love to know, tt doesn’t have to be editing or writing, it can be business related, legal related, whatever. But for the editors listening, business owners, if you could leave them with just one nugget of advice or tip or what-have-you, especially for editors who are just starting out in business, what advice would you give them? If you could just say one thing. 

Sam: To lead with curiosity. Keep an open mind because it’s possible that whatever is possible for you, or the product or service that you’re meant to create, or the people you’re meant to work with, are not things that you can envision right now. And you don’t need to. You just need to keep an open mind.

Tara: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, so if people wanna read your book, get your newsletter—what else—get your templates, all the things, where can they find you? 

Sam: Yeah, so you can buy my book When I Start My Business, I’ll Be Happy anywhere books are sold, or you can head to samvanderwielen.com/book. I have all the links there for you. Since you love listening to podcasts, you can come listen to mine, On Your Terms, anywhere you listen to podcasts. It’s the podcast that helps you grow a yes, legally protected, but also profitable business.

And then I definitely recommend signing up for my free weekly newsletter at Sam’s Sidebar. I’ll make sure that Tara has the link down for you in the show notes. 

Tara: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for chatting with me. I had so much fun. I can’t wait to see you in a month-ish. 

Sam: Yeah, the same. I’ll see you soon. All right, thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Tara: Bye, Sam.

Tara: Thank you so much for tuning in to today’s episode. If you enjoy The Modern Editor Podcast, I would be so grateful if you left us a review over on iTunes. And as always, you can head to TaraWhitaker.com to connect with me and stay in touch. We’ll chat again soon.